This interview with Pam Brantley, daughter of Johnny Brantley, was conducted, transcribed and edited by Peter Strömbäck. I haven't made any changes or additions to the text apart from a couple of suggestions on spelling and the addition of some links and illustrations. My thanks to both Pam Brantley and Peter Strömbäck (
Pam Brantley Interview July 24, 2024
This spring saw the release of an Ohio Players compilation called “Observations In Time (The Johnny Brantley/Vidalia Productions)”. Brantley is a well-known figure among record collectors and fans of raw soul and r ‘n’ b, but this is the first time a release containing his productions has been marketed using his name. So it seems interest in the man is only growing. Previous research has been done by Northern Soul expert Colin Dilnot, who published his findings on Brantley on his blog In Dangerous Rhythm and also in an article in There’s That Beat! (an attempt was made to contact Colin, but it seems he has retired from music writing).
As a fan of raw, gritty US 60s and 70s soul (and Jimi Hendrix, who figures into the story as you will see) I trawled magazine archives for any information I could find about Johnny Brantley. I actually found more information regarding his wife Carole Preston Brantley (later Carole Brantley Pines), who turned out to be a legend in her own right.
This put me in contact with their only child, daughter Pamela (Pam) Brantley. Pam is very much alive and feisty, and generous and friendly. She agreed to have a talk on the lives of her father John Wesley Brantley (born September 9, 1929, died September 9, 1985) and Carole Preston Brantley (born June 2, 1938, died April 11, 2020), a quite remarkable African American couple, both trailblazers in their own fields.
Following is an edited portion of the talk with Pam, interspersed with some additional facts from available sources.
Q: Hi, Pam, how are you? So nice to speak to you. Did you just get home from work?
Pam: Yes, I did. I just got home from work.
Q: I'm really honoured to talk to you. Thank you so much. So, you live in Paterson, New Jersey?
Pam: Yeah, Paterson, New Jersey.
Q: I’ve tried to find out as much as I can about Carole and Johnny. Both your parents had really interesting lives in that era. So, you were born in, I think October 1959. Can that be?
Pam: That's exactly right. October 13th. In Harlem, New York.
Q: And you moved later on to Teaneck in New Jersey.
Pam: Yes, I was born to Harlem, New York. We moved to Teaneck, New Jersey in 1969 when I was 10 years old. I lived there, started 6th grade, 7th, 8th, 9th with the high school. Graduated from there, and then went off to college. Stayed in in Teaneck until, I want to say, 1979. 1979-80 is when my mom and my father split. But they never divorced.
Q: Do you have any memories of growing up in Harlem?
Pam: Oh, I have plenty.
Q: Was it a big community around your family?
Pam: Back in, let's say, the early 60s. I remember going to school. I went to a Lutheran school. I have to say we all then back learned respect for one another, respect for your elders, and discipline.
Q: So, your mum Carole was one of the four original Ebony Fashion Flair models.
Pam: Yes. And there's only one other still alive.
Q: So they were icons. And their fashion shows raised many millions in funds for African American charities.
Pam: Definitely. Oh, and by the way, when we went out to California in 2019, she was honoured as one of the originals. She got a proclamation at that time, in 2019. From the one and only Kamala Harris.
Q: So, Carole, she was a beautiful woman. She was on the covers of Ebony and Jet Magazine, which were trailblazing lifestyle magazines for African Americans at the time [Ebony and Jet were monthlies, the target audience the African American community, and the coverage included the lifestyles and accomplishments of influential black people in fashion, beauty, and politics -ed.]
Pam: Yes, Ebony showcased African Americans, whereas she was not the first to showcase Vogue or Mademoiselle or anything like that. I believe it was Beverly Johnson who did that. But yeah, she was a trailblazer.
Q: When they were touring, she was sent to buy food from restaurants.10
Pam: Yeah, her and my aunt Elaine, who is the last living one. And Elaine is lighter than my mom.
Q: She did her last tour in 1961. She stepped back from modelling after that.
Pam: Yeah, ‘cause I was here (laughs)! And I think she did one show in New York, and the person that I sat on was the famous Lena Horne. And I was pointing up – “that’s my mommy!”
Q: So, in Harlem, both of your parents were somewhat of celebrities, because they're mentioned in Ebony and those magazines.
Pam: True. And also, my grandfather, my mom's dad, was a barber in Harlem, and that's probably where I got it from. He used to work right in the center of Harlem, pretty much, on 7th Avenue. I used to watch him as a kid in the barber shop.
Pam: Every job that I basically have had was either from my mom's modelling, so I did something in fashion, which was basically retail, and my father and music. I used to write and produce commercials for a radio station. And barbering is because my grandfather and my great-grandfather were also barbers.
Johnny Brantley and Carole Preston married at Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem on May 24, 1958, 1 with a wedding reception at Smalls Paradise.
JET 12 JUNE 1958
Q: Was your dad older than Carole?
Pam: Yes. He was nine years older than my mom. My father was born on September 9, 1929. And my mom was born on June 2, 1938.
Q: There's no mention of your dad's passing away that I can't find.
Pam: He died on September 9, 1985. He died on his birthday.
Pam: My dad grew up in Vidalia, Georgia. And when he was a little kid, he moved to the Bronx and lived with his sister. Until he moved out and then got married with my mom in 1958.
Q: So, Johnny was from Vidalia.
Pam: Yes, like the onion. Vidalia, Georgia.
Q: Both your parents were African American, but sort of light skinned.
Pam: Yes. My dad mirrored his father, who was half Indian.
Pam: My dad was an excellent golfer. He played softball. He used to be in a softball league in Harlem.
CASH BOX 4 OCTOBER 1958
After serving in the Air Force during the Korea war, 2 Johnny Brantley started working with Alan Freed for WINS Radio and WNEW television when Freed came to New York in 1954. Alan Freed was of course the legendary DJ and concert promotor, who was the first DJ to play and promote rock ‘n’ roll, and had a big role in breaking down racial barriers in US pop music culture. Freed’s career later dove-tailed when he was caught up in the payola scandal (payments from record companies to play specific records).
Q: If you look up Johnny, he's mentioned as the right-hand man of Alan Freed.
Pam: Yes. That's how Alan Freed got black music. Because my father would go out and, you know, get the artist and whatnot. When payola came up, my father was smart enough to know what the envelope was. He never touched it. There's a book that names Ronnie Granger [Brantley’s colleague at WINS – ed.] and Rick Willard [Brantley’s colleague at WNEW – ed.] under the payola situation. My father's name was never mentioned because he was never busted. He would get paid, but he knew how to get the money without it being obvious. You know, the gangster in him. ‘Cause he thought he was Al Capone. He would bring the music in some way or another, that envelope would get to him, but he would not be in the studio getting it. But Ronnie was like popping fingers and whatnot. Yeah, he'd go get it!
Pam: I do remember going up to Purchase, New York, to Morris Levy's house.
Q: Notorious gangster.
Pam: The notorious gangster. I remember my father, my mother and I drove in a snowstorm to his house. We got to the house. It was almost like medieval times. We sit down at this big table, everyone eats, and then he separates the women from the men. They go into a room or whatever. He comes back out and then goes “everybody in the garage!” He opens up the garage door, and he must have had ski suits for everyone. And we all got on snowmobiles. That was really fun.
On November 27, 1959 the payola scandal hit, and soon Freed was fired from his radio and TV jobs. As mentioned, Brantley escaped any legal consequences. He started working as a promotion man and record producer. In 1960-61, Brantley worked as a promotion man for the Everest Records label. 3 In summer 1961, he had a daily rhythm and blues radio show on WBNX-N.Y. 4 Later he worked for KBLA. In April 1963, he became National Promotion Manager for Amy-Mala Records. 5 In later 1963, Brantley was also doing what Cash Box called "indie promotion" on the West Coast. 6 In 1964, Brantley was doing promotion for the Red Bird 7 label.
CASH BOX 29 AUGUST 1964
Q: What did Johnny do after the payola scandal? He sort of became a promotion manager?
Pam: He did promotions, he did producing. Johnny and Rick Willard ended up having an office, I want to say on 52nd and Broadway, almost across from the old Ed Sullivan Theater. You get off the elevator. Their office was towards the middle. Towards the end of the hallway was The Isley Brothers’ office and Ruth Bowen's booking agency. Her booking agency booked all the black artists that were on and coming from R&B to soul to jazz to whatever. If they were black, then she booked them. Those were the offices on that floor. I never saw artists come through the office. He did paperwork and whatever there, but he always went to the studio.
Q: Do you know which studios Johnny used in New York, was it all over the place?
Pam: A few different ones. The only one I remember going into was in Yonkers somewhere, and I couldn't tell you what the name of it was. Yeah, and Electric Lady Land [Electric Lady Studios, the Jimi Hendrix studio – ed.] towards the village. There might have been another one in New York that I don't necessarily remember going to, but I remember being in there.
Pam: So, you know what’s interesting, which never came out. A fellow [Simon David – ed.] got in touch with me, had me sign off so that he could make this documentary on one of my father's artists, Lee Moses. He made the documentary, got in touch with his family, did a whole thing on it. And the film is never released. I forget if it was the family or if it was the record label. No, the record label wouldn't give up the rights, and it was never released.
Q: I was planning to ask about that because Lee Moses is sort of the number one obscure raw soul icon.
Pam: Yeah.
Q: Do you have any recollections of meeting musicians in your father's circle or so?
Pam: In my father's circle, not necessarily. The one famous person I met at the time was Ricky West. Who wrote the original “Summer Madness” for Kool and the Gang? Because while I was doing hair, I gave him a haircut and also put a semi-dye on his hair. I'm looking at him, because he looks familiar, but I can't recollect who he is at the moment. But I can’t say “who are you?” Well, it's time to pay, and he gives me his bank card. So, I looked at him, looked down at the name. And it was actually Kool himself. His real name is Robert Bell. In order to not fan out and act stupid, I threw in “Hey, you know my father recorded Ricky West! Is Ricky still alive?” and he looked at me and said “nah”. And that's how we like broke the ice. Like, I was not just a fan.
Brantley started a production company in 1976 with his old pal Rick Willard, Brantley-Willard Corporation. 2 They produced two albums for sax veteran Lou Donaldson, one for sax veteran Willis Jackson, and the only solo album by Ricky West, who played and arranged on all the albums. The albums were released on the major labels Cotillion (distributed by Atlantic) and Mercury.
Q: I have a record here that your dad produced that Ricky West is on. It’s by Lou Donaldson.
Pam: Yes. We were in the studio together. The only other famous person, but I don't count him as famous 'cause I knew him, was Lionel Hampton. He dated my aunt, who did commenting for Ebony. The most famous was Miles Davis, I met him in the parking garage where we parked our car, and I just happened to be observing his.
Pam: I met Stephanie Mills at an industry party. Who else? Max Roach, the drummer. Because I'm a jazz fan as well. I was in Greenwich. My uncle Ronnie was in the industry as well, I was visiting his ex-wife Yvonne, and she had let Max know that I was coming. So, he opens the door, and stood there, like, frozen. And I look over and I see his drums. “You want me to play for you?” He played a little riff for me. We drank a soda and whatnot, but it was cute.
Pam: The only other person I can remember that I met backstage was Roy Ayers. Other than that, not too many that I can think of off the top of my head that weren't like family.
Pam: Kelly Isley and my father were best friends. Kelly used to send me two dozen roses when I was in college, for my birthday. That’s about it that I remember. [Brantley actually has a songwriting credit on the Isley Brothers 1969 album “Get Into Something” (“If He Can, You Can”) – ed.]
Q: From 1964 and up till the early 70s, there's a lot of records produced by Johnny with different singers and backing bands. It seems like he would get the studio, get a band and then try out various vocalists.
Pam: I want to say Herman Hitson. Gloria Barnes.
Q: Jimmy Norman.
Pam: Jimmy Norman, good one. They were basically his studio artists. And he recorded them as well.
Q: And Lee Moses also.
Pam: He went to Atlanta and recorded Lee in Atlanta. I don't ever remember Lee. He might have come up to New York maybe once or twice, but everything he did was out of Atlanta.
Q: Herman Hitson was also an Atlanta artist.
Pam: Yes, he basically stayed up in New York. But my father used to work a lot with Jimmy Norman.
Q: A lot of those records are very expensive by now, the original 45s.
Pam: I’ve tried my best to find out who the hell took over his masters. And who found them? Because technically I can sue.
Q: Actually, there's been quite a few reissues of his productions in recent years. Vidalia Productions, which was his production company.
Pam: Vidalia, Pam-Cal and Cudda Pane.
Q: Can you explain what those names mean?
Pam: Pam-Cal is my mother and myself. Cudda Pane was just something that he made up.And those were his record labels.
Q: There was a duo called The Icemen, and they did a 45 called “My Girl (She's a Fox)”. And this featured Jimi Hendrix on guitar.
Pam: Lonnie Youngblood and Jimi Hendrix. “Back Together Again” or something like that [the album title is “Two Great Experiences – Together” – ed.]
Q: And it was later sampled by John Legend and Amy Winehouse, that track. There are quite a few Jimi Hendrix albums with Johnny credited as a producer, and that’s sort of a thorny area. Lonnie Youngblood and Jimi Hendrix played on some sessions in early 1966 backing various solo artists.
Pam: Backup guitarist for The Isley Brothers.
Q: Was that the connection, how your dad hired Hendrix? Through The Isley Brothers?
Pam: The radio DJ Jack Walker worked at WLIB in New York. It was an AM station. He was good friends with my father and was one of the connections to the Isleys, because they lived right behind each other in Teaneck. So that whole connection together was like family.
Pam: Herman Amos was also a DJ. Gerry Bledsoe. Gerry lived up the street from us in Teaneck. Rocky G lived around the corner from us, about three blocks around the corner from us. So, we were all were connected in that musical field. A lot of people that I went to high school with in Teaneck, their parents were musical artists. My best friend walking to school, his father was Ben E. King. I went to school with Ray Barretto. Dizzy Gillespie - Mia Gillespie and I are friends. She's best friends with one of my good friends. That whole conglomerate of jazz and r ‘n’ b artists all in the same vicinity, because it was close to New York.
In 1971, Brantley started his Maple Records label, which was distributed by All Platinum, run by Sylvia and Joe Robinson.
Q: Johnny started a label called Maple.
Pam: Yes, Maple Records was also a street that we lived on, we actually lived on East Maple Street. That's where Maple Records came from.
Q: And Maple was distributed by All Platinum, which was Sylvia and Joe Robinson,
Pam: Exactly. They lived in Englewood, New Jersey, which is right next door to Teaneck.
Q: And your dad sort of worked with them.
Pam: Joe Robinson.
Q: He was a record label owner and producer.
Pam: The very first rap song that everybody knows, “Rapper’s Delight”, came out under Joe Robinson's label. That was their group. The Sugar Hill Gang was named after the famous neighbourhood in Harlem, Sugar Hill.
Q: You mentioned Lionel Hampton, the jazz legend. Your dad produced a record by him in Atlanta?
Pam: No, he did it here in New York. Lionel Hampton lived down by Lincoln Center. And us knowing him is how he ended up with my aunt Audrey. My mom and my dad introduced the two of them .
In 1973, Brantley and jazz legend Lionel Hampton set up Gates Records in Atlanta, with an office as well as the Maple Recording Studio. Planned releases were by Lee Moses, Tony Baxter, Harrison Jones, Gloria Barnes and Hampton. Brantley had identified "a major source of talent" for "contemporary rhythm & blues" in Atlanta. The company also had offices in New York, on 165 West 46th Street. 8 Brantley produced an album for Hampton, “Them Changes”, but it came out on the Brunswick label in 1973. 8
Q: Did Johnny go back to Atlanta a lot to work with artists?
Pam: He stayed down there for a time. We were still living on East Maple Street when he did that. He got an apartment down in Atlanta and was recording Hitson and Lee Moses. He stayed there for a while. Then he eventually came back up. But he didn't stay there for like a year or anything like that. He was down there a couple weeks, would come home, go back down. In order to get the music done.
The last known Brantley productions to hit the market were issued on the New York Spring label in 1980, featuring acts Janice Cambell and Legend featuring Tony Baxter and Hugh Harris. Colin Dilnot wrote, however, that Brantley was active until the end, for example licencing his recordings to the UK Northern Soul label Grapevine in the late 70’s. 9
Q: If you're looking online at Johnny's productions, he did a lot of work, a lot of productions up till the mid-70s. Then there were some records in the early 80s. But what were his activities, did he keep on producing?
Pam: The biggest, I won't say failure… But the one artist that was the thorn in him - Jimmy Castor. He produced the hit song “Hey, Leroy”. And then Jimmy Castor came out of nowhere and wanted to sue, and he just dropped him like a hot potato. He was the one who was the most pain.
Q: Because “Hey, Leroy” was a big seller.
Pam: Exactly. The one song that I think my father wanted to kick himself over was Frankie Lymon – “Why The Fools Fall In Love”. He sold it before it became something and Diana Ross made it, and you know the rest.
Q: Pam, thanks for your time. It was very, very interesting.
Pam: Thank you, Peter.
SOURCES:
1 Billboard May 19, 1958
2 The Record Sep 12, 1985
3 Billboard Oct 3, 1958
4 Cash Box July 8, 1961
5 Billboard April 20, 1963
6 Cash Box Nov 11, 1963
7 Cash Box Aug 29, 1964
8 Billboard Feb 3, 1973
9 Colin Dilnot, There’s That Beat (Issue 5) – “Johnny Brantley – A Treasure Trove of Lost Sounds”, 2007
10 as described in an article published on the ebony.com -website,"How a Couture Pioneer Changed Fashion", September 5, 2019:
"Traveling with the Ebony Fashion Fair was far from glamorous. Carole Brantley Pines, a 19-year-old model with the first show in 1958, says she was one of two light-skinned models who were sent in to get food at restaurants that declined to serve Blacks. In some Southern towns during the very early years, Mrs. Johnson’s husband arranged for food to be delivered to the bus “so we didn’t have to go to any back doors,” says Ms. Brantley Pines, who modeled under her maiden name, Carole Preston."